[tor-relays] Your opinion about tor-node.org

martln · March 1, 2022, 11:57pm

Hello all,

I don't know who of you is familiar with this, I just came across it a few weeks ago. It's about tor-node.org.

It is probably a person who collects funds for the operation of Tor infrastructure. Nothing wrong with that and I applaud that.

What you might find objectionable, but I don't, are the sponsors.They are marketplaces that make their money from drug dealing and other illegal sales. I don't mind that, anything is better than buying your addictive substance from windy guys at the train station.

But what bothers me is the transparency. I also believe that using Tor is an act of anonymity. But running Tor infrastructure is an act of transparency. I am very interested in knowing who is working on our project.

Unfortunately, the operator can't come forward here either, because then his anonymity towards the marketplace scene would be over.

On the one hand, the operator justifiably wants to remain anonymous. Just to protect his sponsors. On the other hand, however, this leads to the fact that he can not reveal himself as an relay owner within the operators.

The operator can also not disclose to his sponsors what happens with their money. Because then the sponsors would know which relays are operated and then it is over with the anonymity.

Without wanting to imply it, I think that this can also simply be a fraud against the sponsors. I wouldn't care about that either. But I do not think that this is the case and assume that relays are operated.

What do you think about it? For me, it's a breach of the principle of transparency, which I'm sure most of you here agree with.

I would like to emphasize that I welcome every supporter of the network and I am glad about every single relay. But do we as a community welcome this kind of relay operators? Feel free to express your opinion.

···

--
Martin

tor-relays · March 2, 2022, 12:02am

Martin,

This message is glowing too brightly for me.

Best Regards,
Me

···

On March 1, 2022 11:57:26 PM UTC, Martin Gebhardt martin@gebhardt.im wrote:

Hello all,

I don't know who of you is familiar with this, I just came across it a 
few weeks ago. It's about tor-node.org.

It is probably a person who collects funds for the operation of Tor 
infrastructure. Nothing wrong with that and I applaud that.

What you might find objectionable, but I don't, are the sponsors.They 
are marketplaces that make their money from drug dealing and other 
illegal sales.  I don't mind that, anything is better than buying your 
addictive substance from windy guys at the train station.

But what bothers me is the transparency. I also believe that using Tor 
is an act of anonymity. But running Tor infrastructure is an act of 
transparency. I am very interested in knowing who is working on our 
project.

Unfortunately, the operator can't come forward here either, because then 
his anonymity towards the marketplace scene would be over.

On the one hand, the operator justifiably wants to remain anonymous. 
Just to protect his sponsors. On the other hand, however, this leads to 
the fact that he can not reveal himself as an relay owner within the 
operators.

The operator can also not disclose to his sponsors what happens with 
their money. Because then the sponsors would know which relays are 
operated and then it is over with the anonymity.

Without wanting to imply it, I think that this can also simply be a 
fraud against the sponsors. I wouldn't care about that either. But I do 
not think that this is the case and assume that relays are operated.

What do you think about it? For me, it's a breach of the principle of 
transparency, which I'm sure most of you here agree with.

I would like to emphasize that I welcome every supporter of the network 
and I am glad about every single relay. But do we as a community welcome 
this kind of relay operators? Feel free to express your opinion.

--
Martin

lists · March 2, 2022, 9:21pm

Hello all,

I don't know who of you is familiar with this, I just came across it a
few weeks ago. It's about tor-node.org.

I can't find any relays operated by them. Does anyone know which? Looks like a
ploy to me to find some dumbasses to fund Alphabay Market, Archetyp Market and
Abacus Market's own hidden services. They should actually make enough
money.

It is probably a person who collects funds for the operation of Tor
infrastructure. Nothing wrong with that and I applaud that.

As long as they don't publish fingerprints of the relays, I don't believe
anything.
If anyone is interested in sponsoring reputable Tor relay operators, here is a
long list: https://www.torservers.net/partners/

But what bothers me is the transparency. I also believe that using Tor
is an act of anonymity. But running Tor infrastructure is an act of
transparency. I am very interested in knowing who is working on our
project.

I completely agree.

···

On Mittwoh, 2. März 2022 00:57:26 CET Martin Gebhardt wrote:

--
╰_╯ Ciao Marco!

martln · March 3, 2022, 3:40pm

Hi Marco,

[..]

I can't find any relays operated by them. Does anyone know which? Looks like a
ploy to me to find some dumbasses to fund Alphabay Market, Archetyp Market and
Abacus Market's own hidden services. They should actually make enough
money.

I don't understand the analogy in his phrase. I'm not a native English speaker.
But possibly me@theintern.pw wanted to make himself noticed that he is responsible?
And if the operator is me@theintern.pw, then the $5 he currently spends on his relay should be a small piece of what he earns.

But like you said, then he's just looking for people to fund something else, not real existing relays.

If so, then that's part of the problem I have. No name, only a relay what you find in connection with his email address and generally just no transparency and no communication.

[..]

But what bothers me is the transparency. I also believe that using Tor
is an act of anonymity. But running Tor infrastructure is an act of
transparency. I am very interested in knowing who is working on our
project.

I completely agree.

Another point.. What critics might like is the clear reference to illegal trading platforms in connection with the operation of Tor infrastructure.

We all know too well how much illegal activity is conducted via our infrastructure. Hacking, Spam, Marketplaces.. But we also know that there is far more legal use. It is unclear to me why such a "foundation", which has no name, is used to provide arguments to critics.

I know this is a very political discussion and shaped by my personal views. I can also understand if no one wants to have such a discussion.

I would like to hear some more opinions. I hope one or the other still comes to word. It can also be that I think wrong and it is quite okay.

···

On 3/2/22 22:21, lists@for-privacy.net wrote:

On Mittwoh, 2. März 2022 00:57:26 CET Martin Gebhardt wrote:

--
Martin

tor-relays · March 3, 2022, 3:47pm

I think part of the issue is with the war in Ukraine now the Russian hackers as well as the Chinese are trying to shut down Tor, which was invented by the US military.

Of course illegal marketplaces use it like the Silk Road once did when it was active, but in my opinion we are right now in a 3rd World War and all sides are trying bitterly to control the infrastructure, whether Tor, or various other VPNs, etc.

I use the Fediverse as well.

···

Hi Marco,

On 3/2/22 22:21, lists@for-privacy.net wrote:

On Mittwoh, 2. März 2022 00:57:26 CET Martin Gebhardt wrote:
[…]
I can’t find any relays operated by them. Does anyone know which? Looks like a
ploy to me to find some dumbasses to fund Alphabay Market, Archetyp Market and
Abacus Market’s own hidden services. They should actually make enough
money.

I don’t understand the analogy in his phrase. I’m not a native English
speaker.
But possibly me@theintern.pw wanted to make himself noticed that he is
responsible?
And if the operator is me@theintern.pw, then the $5 he currently spends
on his relay should be a small piece of what he earns.

But like you said, then he’s just looking for people to fund something
else, not real existing relays.

If so, then that’s part of the problem I have. No name, only a relay
what you find in connection with his email address and generally just no
transparency and no communication.

[…]

But what bothers me is the transparency. I also believe that using Tor
is an act of anonymity. But running Tor infrastructure is an act of
transparency. I am very interested in knowing who is working on our
project.
I completely agree.
Another point… What critics might like is the clear reference to
illegal trading platforms in connection with the operation of Tor
infrastructure.

We all know too well how much illegal activity is conducted via our
infrastructure. Hacking, Spam, Marketplaces… But we also know that
there is far more legal use. It is unclear to me why such a
“foundation”, which has no name, is used to provide arguments to critics.

I know this is a very political discussion and shaped by my personal
views. I can also understand if no one wants to have such a discussion.

I would like to hear some more opinions. I hope one or the other still
comes to word. It can also be that I think wrong and it is quite okay.

–
Martin

tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

tor1 · March 3, 2022, 5:22pm

Glowie is used as a slur* (kinda) against intelligence officers. Normally used for the CIA but also used for agencies like the ATF, FBI, etc. Their inability to blend in to the native population's habits, patterns and speech makes them stick out like a sore thumb to the population, hence they "glow in the dark."

I think the individual is calling the tor-node.org site a CIA style operation. Or at least that something feels fishy about it.

···

On March 3, 2022 3:40:42 PM UTC, Martin Gebhardt <martin@gebhardt.im> wrote:

Hi Marco,

On 3/2/22 22:21, lists@for-privacy.net wrote:

On Mittwoh, 2. März 2022 00:57:26 CET Martin Gebhardt wrote:

[..]

I can't find any relays operated by them. Does anyone know which? Looks like a
ploy to me to find some dumbasses to fund Alphabay Market, Archetyp Market and
Abacus Market's own hidden services. They should actually make enough
money.

I don't understand the analogy in his phrase. I'm not a native English speaker.
But possibly me@theintern.pw wanted to make himself noticed that he is responsible?
And if the operator is me@theintern.pw, then the $5 he currently spends on his relay should be a small piece of what he earns.

But like you said, then he's just looking for people to fund something else, not real existing relays.

If so, then that's part of the problem I have. No name, only a relay what you find in connection with his email address and generally just no transparency and no communication.

[..]

But what bothers me is the transparency. I also believe that using Tor
is an act of anonymity. But running Tor infrastructure is an act of
transparency. I am very interested in knowing who is working on our
project.

I completely agree.

Another point.. What critics might like is the clear reference to illegal trading platforms in connection with the operation of Tor infrastructure.

We all know too well how much illegal activity is conducted via our infrastructure. Hacking, Spam, Marketplaces.. But we also know that there is far more legal use. It is unclear to me why such a "foundation", which has no name, is used to provide arguments to critics.

I know this is a very political discussion and shaped by my personal views. I can also understand if no one wants to have such a discussion.

I would like to hear some more opinions. I hope one or the other still comes to word. It can also be that I think wrong and it is quite okay.

--
Martin

_______________________________________________
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

martln · March 3, 2022, 8:45pm

Thank you for the explanation. It's never too late to learn.

···

On 3/3/22 18:22, tor@nullvoid.me wrote:

Glowie is used as a slur* (kinda) against intelligence officers. Normally used for the CIA but also used for agencies like the ATF, FBI, etc. Their inability to blend in to the native population's habits, patterns and speech makes them stick out like a sore thumb to the population, hence they "glow in the dark."

--
Martin

lists · March 3, 2022, 9:48pm

Yes, I understand German better too.
I took a closer look at the site. Pretty hidden on council.re -> Projects:

"The Tor Relay Foundation (TRF) is here to give back to the Tor project and to
help build the infrastructure.
There are about 7000 active tor relays and 8 million daily estimated tor
users. That's not enough! We need more people here.
One of the bottlenecks of the darknet is the amount of people that the Tor
network can support. Fast connectivity depends on a lot of active tor nodes.
More nodes, faster speed, more satisfied customers. It's pretty simple maths.
If you want to seriouly make a dent in the business world, you need to possess
the infrastructure to cater to the people who want to visit your service in
the first place.
Are you the administrator or marketing guru of a darknet service? Are you
constantly complaining about the Tor network providing unsatisfactory
infrastructure for your valued customers?
Would you like to give back to the community that has been supporting you
since you released your project?"

They don't collect donations from average users, but from DNM sysadmins.
OK, generally quite good to encourage some DNM admins to fund or operate Tor
relays. DNM is of course not good advertising for the Tor Project and Relay
operators It's hard enough to find ISP's for Tor exit relays as it is.

Because of the BTC & XMR donation addresses:
Monero blockchain obfuscate transactions to achieve anonymity.
Serious projects list the view key for the monero donation address.

···

On Donnerstag, 3. März 2022 16:40:42 CET Martin Gebhardt wrote:

I don't understand the analogy in his phrase. I'm not a native English
speaker.

--
╰_╯ Ciao Marco!

martln · March 3, 2022, 10:57pm

I don't understand the analogy in his phrase. I'm not a native English
speaker.

Yes, I understand German better too.
I took a closer look at the site. Pretty hidden on council.re -> Projects:

[..]

They don't collect donations from average users, but from DNM sysadmins.
OK, generally quite good to encourage some DNM admins to fund or operate Tor
relays. DNM is of course not good advertising for the Tor Project and Relay
operators It's hard enough to find ISP's for Tor exit relays as it is.

I haven't even looked at it that far. But they also refer to "Dread". Seems to be a DNM scene board.
There they ask for donations, but also only very discreetly and at the end of an announcement.

Anyway, I don't think that's so good. Especially because of the representative effect. If some reporter or journalist wants to bitch about Tor again, then such a project will serve as a good example to create a negative narrative.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Because of the BTC & XMR donation addresses:
Monero blockchain obfuscate transactions to achieve anonymity.
Serious projects list the view key for the monero donation address.

Okay, I can't do anything with that. I know too little about Monero.

But thank you for sharing about it. In any case, I'm not alone with my basic criticism.

It would be great if the operator would somehow speak up. My point is not to criticize the project, but to learn more about the background.
As some of you might have noticed, I've been doing intensive research on tor for half a year now and will publish a paper about it in one or two years. Something like this fits in there as well. Even if I personally don't like it.

···

On 3/3/22 22:48, lists@for-privacy.net wrote:

On Donnerstag, 3. März 2022 16:40:42 CET Martin Gebhardt wrote:

--
Martin